I'm getting more and more mixed up.....

[kate]

Hi,I have some problems with grammar,
Is it possible to write such question:"Since when have you known...?"I was almost certain that we're supposed to say :"since when did you know...?"Because we are asking about time(when) and in Present Perfect we do not use questions with time.So...how this question should look like?
Another thing is that when I was preparing for final exam at high school I remember that we put past perfect in such sentence:"Not until yesterday had we known about their engagement".And now when I'm doing some exercises and when I check them in the key I find such sentence:"Not until yesterday did we know about their engagement."
Is there two options possible?
Another matter......I don't understand when do we use past simple or 'would' to say about future in the past.Why do we say:"we spread the news so that everybody would know what was going on"(why we can't say we spread the news so that everybody knew what was going on?)And in turn we say:"I was going to tell her when she was drunk" and we don't say:"I was going to tell her when she would be drunk".This two sentences talk about future in the past but in one we use 'would' and in the other past simple.Maybe it's easy but I really don't understand it.
Ok,that's about all
TAKE CARE

[xeo]

so... please sit comfortably... and focus on my mouth...

"since when have you know" - because you're asking about a period of time which started in the past and lasts until now... you don't ask about a point in the past... "when" indicates a point in the past... but there is "since when" so this construction indicates a period of time... for example: you met someone in the past and you know him/her until now... so you can say: I have known him since 1999...
it's easy to remember that we use Present Perfect along with "since" and "for"

you see... simple past if you want to say when exactly you met him, if you want to say about a POINT in the past...
example: I met him in 1998

but your question is "how long have you known him ?" "since when have you known him", so you're asking about a period of time, NOT about one moment in the past, one point...
example: I've known him for six years/I've known him since 1998 (now is 2004 and you met him in 1998 = 6 years)

as to your second question...

"Not until yesterday had we known about their engagement"

it indicates that you hadn't known about their engagement before you heard it yesterday

"not until yesterday did we know about their engagement"
it woudn't be my choice but let's try to explain it:

it indicates that they engaged in the day called "yesterday", you couldn't know it earlier that's why you can't use past perfect...

As to your third question...

for instance: Paul said: I will be an actor

and now you want to say what Paul said in the past...so...

Paul said that he WOULD be an actor...

we use WOULD when sb else said something about FUTURE using "simple future tense" (you know simple future tense, don't you?)

to make it clear... your sentence in the previous form looked like this:

we spread the news so that everybody will know what is going on

that's why in reported speech it looks like:

we spread the news so that everybody would know what was going on

spread ---> spread
will ---> would
is ----> was

you can't use "knew" because there is not any of present tenses in the orginal sentence, "will know" is a future tense...

next:

"I was going to tell her when she was drunk"

the original one looked like this:

I am going to tell her when she is drunk

next:
if you would like to use:

"I was going to tell her when she would be drunk"

then the orginal one has to look like this:

I am going to tell her when she will be drunk

and as you probably know this conctruction is incorrect... why ? because it's the first conditional... so we can't use "will" after "when", and we can't use "will" two times...

always remember about doing one step back...
if you see "is", "am", "are" in a sentence then use "was" "were" in reported speech
if you see any of past forms "were" "was" "did" "saw" etc. then use "had + III form"
if you see "will" "can" etc. then use "would" "could" etc.
if you see a verb in III form then automatically think about "had + III form"
etc.

remember that I form turns into II,
II form turns into had +III and
III form turns into "had + III"

of course you have to learn some other words like "will" "can" "may" "tomorrow" etc. which turn into their proper forms in reported speech

any questions ?

hope it helps...

[kate]

Yeah,you helped me a lot.You must have been tired after replying to my questions .Thanks

[xeo]

And remember that reported speech exists while speaking as well, you can't say "she told me that she will be late"

Homework for you:

give a correct form

[kate]

I will remember that for sure
and of course the right answer is : she told me she would be late.I hope it's correct
Take care

[xeo]

you're a good student